Pit 2 Conversation...

[Svankensen]

Reading between lines it sounded to me like you meant there are actual difficulties to make the game fast forward when you arent resting in a bed. Anyway, yeah, you tell us if its complicated or not, i'll keep asking for stuff and buying further editions =P

[Space Voyager]

I would disagree, as recipes seem to me to be part of the "learning about the game to be able to beat it" system inherent to roguelikes (AFAIK). It's just formalized.
IMHO what the recipe system needs is a better UI, and higher chances to make recipes by sheer deduction / from incomplete messages (either by limiting the components' pool, having recipes follow some pattern (maybe different patterns for different types), or providing an additional source of clues besides messages).

I too would agree that recipes are essential, but they do not need to acquired through several playthroughs. As Svankensen is definitely correct that playthroughs need to be independent for a game to be called a roguelike at all (The Pit is basically a rogue-lite).

I'd just disable the guessing - when you get a recipe, you can build that item. You get the recipe whole. The Pit has a huge number of recipes and not every recipe needs to be available in every game (SotS sadorandomizer).

[BlueTemplar]

But then you would remove a significant part of the sense of progress you get from playthrough to playthrough, as well as the emotional reward when you manage to guess a recipe...

By the same logic, you would need to wipe the SotSdex clean of all information (items, enemies...) from playthrough to playthrough for The Pit to be considered a roguelike...

[Svankensen]

Or you can have the sotsdex either: only show enemies you have seen on that run (why would you need info in ones you havent) or just list all enemies. I mean, it may sound like spoilers, but i honestly barely use the sotsdex, the enemies are very intuitive about what they do and if they have low or high armor.

Anyway, im all in for ALL the info to be available at start (except a few nasty surprises), but again, for some weird reason a roguelike fanatic like me doesnt understand people loves progression, and FTL's system clearly wouldnt work very nicely here.

[Space Voyager]

But then you would remove a significant part of the sense of progress you get from playthrough to playthrough, as well as the emotional reward when you manage to guess a recipe...

By the same logic, you would need to wipe the SotSdex clean of all information (items, enemies...) from playthrough to playthrough for The Pit to be considered a roguelike...

Exactly. Which would be just awesome. AWEsome. AWESOME!

I wouldn't worry if I were you though...

[Mecron]

Nope neither would I

[Space Voyager]

:uses his Zuul "Change game design" power upon last poster:

It takes time for the water to cut a canyon through a rock, but it is tireless and does not care.

No, I'm not water, I'm just trying to look smart. I'll try some more at later date.

[Mecron]

looking forward to your first game

[Vanish]

for some weird reason a roguelike fanatic like me doesnt understand people loves progression

I think It's a bit of a double-edged sword. "Progression" keeps people glued to the game, so I often get the feeling it's used as a sort of watery slide to lead the player into exploring the story (or art direction, or characters, or challenge, or whatever it is the designers want the players to experience). Kind of like a gateway feature.

On the other end, once the game's "progression juice" runs out, interest can quickly dwindle. Even if the game is otherwise rich in replay value and whatnot.

That being said, I am and always will be an RPG addict. I absolutely freakin' love progression, meta-progression and multiple exclusive layers to the same kind of progression. Hence why I ended up clocking over 600 hours total into The Pit + Mindgames (although some board members on here definitely have me beat )

As a footnote, I generally felt that FTL, while a fun game, didn't have progression systems that were as fleshed out as The Pit's. However, FTL pulls ahead when it comes to char gen. IMO, The Pit would benefit from "Type A, Type B" style inventories for each class. Allowing us to personalize the character a little bit can go a long way.

(Also, a little off-topic but I think that when looking for interesting progression ideas, jRPGs can be a good source of inspiration even if they can be overly grind-ey or trope-ey)

So TL;DR, me in a progression-rich game:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/ ... 34x425.jpg

[motorbit]

im not big into rouge likes, so i will not say much about what i would like to see in the pit 2.
however some general thoughts:

whenever in recent years a successor of a game did introduce fundamental changes to the core game, we have seen a shit storm of galactic dimensions. players start the game, notice its not working as expected, and start to rage because they just didnt get what they thought they bought.
this expands to reviews as well. at best the reviewer will citisize the game for being unintuitive, at worst he will declare it as total fail and write endlessly about how the devs could be so stupid to abandont the perfect game mecanics of the predecessor. (even if he hated that game when he reviewed it back then). in any case, what such a game never gets is a fair unbiassed review and players that try it open minded.

so, my suggestion was: if you realy want to name such a game "the pit 2", just do the expected. make the same game again, with better grafik, more items and more floors, but do not change any core game mecanics.

[Mecron]

yep we have learned our lesson...no original thought just cashing in on previous success while covering it up with cosmetic changes! We are on board!

[Starknight]

yep we have learned our lesson...no original thought just cashing in on previous success while covering it up with cosmetic changes! We are on board!

Dammit, Mecron, you broke the sarcasm detector again! (I really should have them made somewhere other than China, I suppose...)

[motorbit]

well, it could realy be a name problem mostly... if you put a 2 behind something, dudes will expect 99%1 + next gen grafix it seems.

anyway, this thread is "how do you like the next pit to be", and as said im not into these games much so i cant realy say.

BUT: if i could just answer "what kind of sots universe game would you like to see?" instead, i could answer.


i hereby undertake the futile attemt to put my imagination into words. in hardmode cause languagebarrier.
ähm ähm:

so, i was thinking about some sort of towerdefense space ship game for some time, and then there was this space run starship towerdefense game recently (with mostly showed me again that towerdefense games bore me (i knew that but i had to try it anyhow because spaceships!))


what happens to the dude after he did that thing deep in the pit? he proably wants to go somewhere now. and maybe he found something so now bad dudes are after him. he could be on the run. maybe in a spaceship?

isnt this the perfect hook for a ftl styled game... like... fly to a new secor, kill the local residents, travle on? then maybe have the battles in a tower defense inspired game mode. you have your ship, it has weapon mounts where you can put in guns you aquired.

deciding where to put that point defense laser and where to install the mass driver i found, that maybe would wake up some fond memories to the sots ship designer XD. and, i disliked on ftl that it didnt matter where i put my guns it had no fire arcs. also i would LOVE real 3d ship where i put the guns on the outside, not a pancake thingy with a hex grid on it like that space run game.
now, you had a vast fundus of ship designs and weapons already. i so totally want to command a tarkasian cruiser XD.

if it comes to the killing the local residents part, i think i would love to play a tower defense game that would break up that "watch your defenses do their thing" and allowed me to get more into the action.
i think i had much more fun if i could assign targets to the indivitual turrets, maybe even take control over a turret or a bank, and aim and fire with the mouse directly. such a game was much more like an rts then, if you see the turrets as imobile units.



so, thats the game i would love to see in the sots universe

[toramo]

Hey YooOoo !!

It is cool to see this post still alive :p
I'm not reading this forum a lot (probably one time per year) but I'm pleased to see that SOTS:pit2 is definitely on the rail

I have to say that some of you afraid me. Definitely, I think that pit 2 need a progression system...
The most common RL have it...
Isaac : unlock Equipments and floor and Character.
FTL : unlock Ships
Darkest dungeon : RPG elements / stuff / dungeon progression.

But it should be improved greatly in Pit2 IMO ... The recipes progression is cool but it takes too much time, really...
For someone like me, I don't want to spoil myself with the WIKI, it is just horrible to reach the end of the game (I didn't beat it yet ... floor 34 on normal).
I spent around 100Hours in this game until now, I discovered a tons of message but with an incomplete decipher...
I'm playing scout mainly because of the tons of upgrade possible each lvl (I max decipher and computer too). But definitely, I don't find recipes ...

I think I found something like a dozens of recipes until now. It is not enough, according to me... And I only play on normal.
This prevent me to go further with the game because my feeling is that I can't beat the game without being able to craft an armor or a melee weapon.
I actually need a good RNG to go further but ... It takes time to play Sots: the pit.

So I come to my second point, a game session should be shorter. I mean, to win the game.
I reached floor 34, I needed more than 10 hours real time to get there. I can see 2 problems because of that :

First, I cannot tests a lot of different strategy through multiple play. I'm still playing the same character (scout) again and again to know him better and to try to finally reach this floor 40.
Second, streaming problems... Streaming is a great way for players to learn more about a game, to check for different strategy and to take pleasure watching this. Watching a FTL Stream is entertaining. Watching a sots:the pit is not because you'll never see the end. Even a play through are long and boring to Watch on YT.

Actually in Sots the pit, the game is difficult even with the easiest class (never tested it personnaly).
On FTL or Isaac, it is easy to beat at start but hard to master at the end with some special ships or classes.
The pit should be inspired by it imo...

Otherwise I'm so in love with the game mechanics !!! turn based, craft, spell, weapons, floor based etc... all is fine ! I love that a lot !
I definitely would want to spend more time on it.

good hunting everyone
++

[Mecron]

thanks for all the input!